Episode 30: Diversity Dynamics

Join hosts Kristelle and Jace on a thought-provoking journey in this week's episode as they delve into the pivotal role of inclusiveness, equality, diversity, and belonging (DEIB) in achieving success. Explore how embracing these principles can not only benefit organizations and individuals but also foster community and economic progress. From unraveling the transformative power of DEIB to confronting the barriers entrenched within both individuals and systems, this episode promises to ignite meaningful conversations and spark actionable insights. 

Tune in weekly and follow us as we continue to unpack powerful stories and insights that shape our world, one episode at a time.

A Siarza Production
Hosted by Kristelle Siarza Moon & Jace Downey
Executive Producer: Kristelle Siarza Moon
Producer: Jace Downey
Video/Editing: Justin Otsuka

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www.misskristelle.com
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www.jacedowney.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Addressing Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Issues
• 9:50 Equity, Inclusion, and Media Responsibility
• 16:05 Understanding and Implementing Allyship in Society
• 28:40 Excitement for Wendy Irwin's Episode

Transcript

Kristelle: 0:00

What is the profile of the community? What do they look like? What's the nuances that you have? And, rather than providing aggressive or non-aggressive solutions, let's look at them from a perspective of are they? What are the things you have to think about before you even put the how together? ["dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy"], Episode 30, 3-0. I wish I was 30 again.

Jace: 0:24

I was just gonna say, just like our age. Yeah, just kidding, I would not be 30 again.

Kristelle: 0:28

I don't, uh, no, um. However, we have a really, really passionate topic. Probably anger, tears, excitement, laughs.

Jace: 0:37

Confusion.

Kristelle: 0:38

We'll come confusion Probably honestly, probably might offend some people.

Jace: 0:42

Yeah, it's a sadly controversial topic right now. Yeah, yeah.

Kristelle: 0:47

Yeah, Diversity, equity and inclusion. I'm going to add belonging in there. And you added belonging. I saw DE. I think that's important DE I and B.

Jace: 0:56

So the inspiration for this was I was really pissed, I was really it's not to say what else is new, what else it's not like a character trait of yours.

Kristelle: 1:09

Very much so. If you ask my husband, I was looking at Albuquerque Business First. Yep Very well respected publication. Good journalism Talks about what are some of the issues in corporate America and the local connection and I was reading these awful articles truthful articles based off of data and journalism fact that people are cutting back their diversity, equity and inclusion programs. They're also seeing the downward trend financially from diversity, equity and inclusion programs. They're also seeing large corporations like Disney, like today's announcement about how the court in Florida actually threw out Disney's case, things along these lines and I said, fuck it. It's time to utilize some of the important conversations in the community and one night, as I do in a lot of the podcasts that we have, I come up with ideas. I came up with this op-ed and I said it's finally time to properly vocalize my genuine feelings about corporate America pulling back on its diversity, equity and inclusion practices.

Kristelle: 2:21

We all worked so hard to get to where we are in our communities and while George Floyd was so painful for our entire community, it brought out the good and the bad of people and humanity the conversations of the Ku Klux Klan. I'll never forget those images running through CNN, and it ran in 2020. At first you thought you were watching something from 1959, but no, it was 2020. And then, on top of that, you see images of people hurting Asian adults in the middle of San Francisco and they're more concerned about the aggressor rather than the Chinese grandma. That's hurt. Things like this are just so frustrating.

Kristelle: 3:10

But I figured it's time to finally talk about it and I finally mentioned it. And I'm grateful for our board chair, lynn Nguyen, who has extensive experience working for Kellogg and the Kellogg Foundation, extensive experience working with the Lumina Foundation and looking at equity work and how it aligns with nonprofits and companies and organizations. And he said it best we're in a critical intersection in our community right now, where racial equity and economic development need to be intersected. And not only do they need to be intersected, but by 2050, more than 50% of our population is going to be a community of color. Right now here in New Mexico, we already see it. Yeah, right About 50.

Kristelle: 3:51

Minority, majority state, or, to say it very, you know, in true, we're a community of color period and we can be leaders in this front, and so that's what really came about as the inspiration for the article that came out. We're filming it today, january 31. You'll see, the article will be out have already been out 14 days from there, so it's by today, and while I receive the compliments that are there, I actually don't want compliments. I really want action out of this. I really want people to step up and say, look, I really need to audit what does equity look like? Don't hire people just because of their color. Like, hire them because they're talented. Don't pass up on them. Really understand how they could be valuable people in your workplace. So that is my soapbox. I will probably stay on it for the next 20 minutes.

Jace: 4:47

I was going to say you ain't going to get off of it, are you? And, to be fair, you've said like it's time to start talking. You've been talking about these things for a long time. You've just spoken on them in conferences, you've been in panels it's not like you've been silent and then all of a sudden you wrote this op-ed. This is an area that you've been very vocal in and you're finding more ways to expand that out and to touch on it from other components as well, and I think the economic one is one we all should be paying attention to, especially in New Mexico where, let's be real, we could use some money.

Jace: 5:18

We are not a state of abundance when it comes to affluence and money and things like that. And then you're talking about being a leader when we look at the population, the population growth, and that not just the workforce, but the population is going to be colored or mixed, or we're seeing blended families and all of these things Like welcome to the world. This is who we are now and it's only going to continue to grow, and there are major economic implications for that and it's already happening. It's not. Should we do this? Should we not do it? It's already happening. Do we as a state and as a community in New Mexico want to profit off of it? And I'm not talking about it in an evil way. I'm talking about actually taking advantage of what's already here, the reality that's already in front of us, and that equity component where we're giving equal access to opportunities, giving equal access to the chance to bring an income and things like that, and then guess where that income goes? Back into the city, back into the communities.

Jace: 6:19

To me, when people are trying to block this and I get the scary part, I get, and we might not have some friends after this, I don't know. But there are people who have benefited from exclusion, from having a very small group at the top, and I absolutely understand those folks and those that have been wrapped in with them, even though they don't actually benefit from it, which I've yet to understand why they want to keep more for themselves. And we have this fictional belief that there's a limited amount of everything and more for others means less. For me. That's not true. It doesn't make any sense.

Kristelle: 7:03

Cultural. It's a cultural backing and belonging.

Jace: 7:06

Yeah, absolutely, and so I do understand, and I can't have compassion for those that are comfortable with life as it is and it has benefited them. Of course they want to keep it that way. They're not evil people. We all seek some kind of homeostasis where what we know has already been safe and beneficial. The desire to change that isn't going to necessarily be forthcoming. So I think we often can put people in this role of being like monsters and that they're trying to attack it, and that exists too. I think a lot of people just feel safe and comfortable with the way things have been, and to ask for that to shift up when they've been told it will negatively impact them is a big ask. So making the case for how this actually benefits everyone is really important, and I think that's what your op-ed did.

Kristelle: 7:59

I hope so. The unfortunate part is that I learned when I was younger, especially in high school. I learned the term microaggressions and I didn't quite understand what that meant until I was older and I found myself really discovering what does microaggressions actually look like and what does that actually mean to me, especially as I become more socially aware of my feelings?

Kristelle: 8:26

or understanding more of my feelings and how they play a part in my decision-making leadership. And when I say that is when I was younger, microaggressions were things like I would get so upset when somebody would call me oriental or saying I've never met anybody that's oriental until I met you and I never understood why I felt so uncomfortable about it. But I remember specifically when I was younger, and to no one's fault except for the editorial team at the time I speak very highly about the Albuquerque Journal. But at the time and it wasn't Karen's fault, karen Moses, the editor-in-chief at the time it wasn't her fault because she was realizing what her team had did unintentionally, and that was they ran a headline when Japan and the United States and the Women's World Cup had played against each other. The headline was the US is on the Oriental Express and I could never understand why I was so angry with that.

Jace: 9:30

I was like was this the 70s?

Kristelle: 9:33

Yeah, this was 2010 when they ran this and it was an accident. And then I spoke up I said I just want to let you know I slept on it. That's not the right way to say this, especially for the API and H community. Fast forward during the Asian hate situation, where people were being killed for being in their businesses, for being in the massage businesses 20 on a good note. The journal calls me back, calls me randomly and was like how do we get this article interpreted in Cantonese and Mandarin? Because we want to make sure that the community understands how to keep themselves safe and so we want to interpret this article. That's diversity and inclusion change. As journalists and public relations folks, we're actually realizing what we're doing and what we're doing differently.

Kristelle: 10:25

Here's another example of where the media is really learning how to finally look, or the impact of corporations actually implementing equity work. There was a time, during those same murders, where a journalist and I won't say who, I won't say what station, but the journalist behind the scenes had asked the question to the APD chief. She asked is it quite possible that these murders were a result because of prostitution? Since this is so common in the community, I paraphrase it but she made the assumption that because there was an Asian people which the chief disclosed, it was automatically prostitution. Prostitution was the is the right way. So equity work Actually reframes the thought that, you know, prostitution is actually sex workers and they're disadvantaged and, oh, by the way, they're victims. That's equity work. And then, on top of that, making the assumption that all Asian businesses are Asian massage businesses, are results or Byway of prostitution is actually incredibly dangerous. There are people that that is their ticket to America for on a workers visa, because the skill set of health and wellness and healing is their common trait, just like nursing, just like teaching. Right, and so it was. And so here's what.

Kristelle: 11:46

Here's the part that really made me limit.

Kristelle: 11:49

So my colleague who sent that to me because she was there at the press conference, was like screaming at her for fucking good reason, hmm, defending the race. But the other part of it was the chief defended it really well, I was like that's somebody's daughter that you're talking about, hmm. And then he, and then I spoke to or son, or son, or person, or person, and I went to the general manager. I said look, I don't think what decision you made, or your news were made, was the right decision. Can you look at this and say, did she make the right call asking the question? And he said I looked at it and our news director, who is apparently related to a very famous civil rights Attorney, and I asked the reporter and we felt like it was a warranted. It was a warranted question and I said that's really disheartening to hear and I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree, hmm, because you get, you put the Asian community at risk again, on top of what's already happening, by asking the question. Yeah, that's not equity work.

Jace: 12:50

Okay, but here is my question back to that, because, from a journalist standpoint, they're trying to get information from all different angles, right? That's fair, mm-hmm, that's the goal, right? And it is true that there are Some establishments, yeah, that do.

Kristelle: 13:05

Yeah, so human trafficking is a huge problem in the Asian community, without a doubt and the outside view of that is these particular services at certain establishments.

Jace: 13:16

So to avoid that entirely also seems wrong.

Kristelle: 13:21

I don't think, yes, correct, because what they also found afterwards was there are several human trafficking cases. I've seen it on the DC level. Yeah, from an equity perspective, how would you talk about this in a way where it's more Inclusive rather than exclusive to a community? And in spotlighting them in a negative light? I would say, if this massage business was black owned or white owned, the question would become is there illegal activity going on in this business? Mm-hmm, and it could be a multitude of anything. It could be drugs, it could be robberies, it could be embezzlement, it could be any type of illegal activity, for sure. And and yeah, human trafficking is obviously illegal. So asking the question like, was there any legal activity, was there anything that could have caused a Springboard effect, that like one illegal activity that led to this hateful crime, it could have been asked.

Kristelle: 14:12

Okay, and also, too, I think the chief had a really good point where he's like I would have addressed it if it, if it, if it was actually a situation, but it was too early to tell. And oh, by the way, that's somebody's daughter that you're talking about, or family member you're talking about. So the situation was really awful. But that's an example of looking at it from a different lens and a lot of people get really upset by saying why do we have to go through the effort of going through this? There's no financial benefit, et cetera, et cetera, and I never thought I would say this at 37. Now it's starting to finally get really exhausting.

Jace: 14:46

It is. Yeah, it really is. So, assuming that not everyone is on the same page with what DEI and B stands for, what ESG is, give us a quick breakdown. What does ESG mean? Environmental, societal governance. But it's also become someone referred to it as a four-letter word with three letters. Esg and DEI is the same way. We're seeing those removed off of websites. People are stepping away from them. They have been, and acronyms can do this sometimes, right, because then it becomes scary oh it's ESG, oh this company. They do the ESG.

Kristelle: 15:23

Like what is that?

Jace: 15:25

What does that mean? Well, it means they have actual policies laid out for how the company impacts the world around it, for how it commits to showing up for society, and how it does that internally and externally. Why is that scary? That a company is exploring the impact that it has on the world and then making conscious choice around how it wants to do that, both in its own walls and outside?

Kristelle: 15:51

I think this is a really good question that I would actually go back to what's in the beautiful brain of Jace Downey. How do people feel about change?

Jace: 16:00

Super scared. The brain hates it. They don't like it.

Kristelle: 16:04

That's really what it is. Let's talk about our queen LT for a hot minute, latricia Woods. We sat on a panel with her, with O'Dwyer's PR, and she talked about what is the definition of allyship. And, my god, the both of us were just blown away with her answer and it falls back very much. It falls back into the question of why are people so scared of this acronym?

Kristelle: 16:28

Or why are people so scared about this? It's not even in a trend, it's a way of life. Why are people so afraid of this way of life? And it goes back to what LT said. She said y'all can't be a fair weather ally, right? What were some of the things that you took away from when she said that? Because being a fair weather ally, being a fake ally, like living the truth of it and not backing down from it that's allyship, right? What did you take away from what she said?

Jace: 16:57

I kind of compared it to what I'm doing in my dating life right now, where the rule is oh there.

Jace: 17:03

That's it ready. Step up or step out is the rule when the kind of I'm not sure and the half in, half out no, thank you, stand by what you say, stand by what you mean, or pause down until you are ready to do that. I think the issue comes in with regard to allyship, with regard to companies or individuals. We don't know how. Like the whole, you can't be a fair weather ally. So what exactly are you asking me to put on the line? How, when? What's the backup? I know they're talking about.

Jace: 17:43

They shared some examples of people saying like, hey, I am with you, but I will lose my job, and it's like then, what? Ok, now I've lost my job. I said I did the right thing. Now I've lost my job. Now who's got my back? Nobody or somebody I don't know. So we're hearing a lot of these things, but I don't hear a lot of very specific hows. How do I step up and when do I need to step out, and when is my voice OK to use when I'm not in that group where I don't think that the onus should be on those on the margins to be stepping up and doing this shit? I think the majority needs to be doing that? Well, what's mine to do and what's ours to do as a company? And how do other companies do it when their employees are being threatened? Their lives are being threatened.

Kristelle: 18:34

So you take the target situation right.

Jace: 18:36

And there have been many others. So I think when people are afraid of change, it's because there's no bridge. Ok, you want us to come here and we're here. What's the?

Kristelle: 18:45

bridge.

Jace: 18:45

Yeah, very good point, but there's like alligator filled waters under there or a big black hole. I don't know what's at the bottom of that. Is there a glass bridge that's going to be there when I take that first step? I think we're missing a lot of really specific hows when we're talking about this for individuals and companies.

Kristelle: 19:02

So it's a good question. I like the metaphor of the bridge because think about Selma.

Jace: 19:07

Selma was the bridge right. That was a very dangerous bridge, though. So, that might not, so is that the bridge?

Kristelle: 19:15

They still did it, of course. Yeah, they still did it and they marched and look at the symbolism of that bridge nowadays, right? So going back to the how it was funny. I was actually talking to a group yesterday about community ambassadors, a group of community ambassadors and how they're serving their various different communities, which is the organization's version of a good, solid equity plan, diversity equity plan. They go to faith-based organizations, they go to black groups, black people, black organizations, black neighborhoods, asian neighborhoods, asian groups. So it's Asian, native, hispanic, black and faith.

Kristelle: 20:01

There was a question of how as well. How do we do this? How do we do this proactively? And then what happens when a crisis happens? And we have to do this reactively? And I gave them the four-step RPIE plan. Sure enough, the person who's leading the strategic planning retreat had a goal, strategies and tactics exercise for them, ready to go over. How do you bridge these gaps between the community?

Kristelle: 20:31

But when I was talking to them and I'm going to pull up that particular presentation very, very quickly when I was talking to them, one of the things that really resonated with me to mention was the fact that they say that they made a lot of moves and changes, but from their lens. They saw victims from a physical victim perspective. But I had to define exactly what a victim is, and I promise I'm going to get back to the how here in a minute. But here's one thing we all have to ask ourselves the minority and the majority what is the definition of a victim? And from the crisis communications I was working on, a victim is, or victim hood is, a self designated state, self sustaining and highly emotional, self terminating victim hood is suffering alone and victims become intellectually deaf. So it goes back to the how.

Kristelle: 21:31

We are in a society where people are receiving the house. Are they truly listening? That's a very big question to ask. When a victim is so angry and they can't communicate their anger, how can they even communicate a how? And it's not enough. To what you're saying, it's totally true. How are we not bridging that?

Kristelle: 21:58

But we have to look at the psychological aspect or the communications aspect of this. We can point and talk and yell and scream, but if nobody is listening, what are we doing this all for? But the question also becomes should we even give up in the first place? No, so I thought that was really fascinating when you said the how, because everybody in the room thought they knew the how. But when I told them, hey, let's go back and let's look at the research like research, your community. Who are your five people that you would talk to in your community that you trust? What is the profile of the community? What do they look like? What's the nuances that you have? And, rather than providing aggressive or non-aggressive solutions, let's look at them from a perspective of what are the things you have to think about before you even put the how together.

Jace: 22:51

You've used the word community many, many, many times. Do you know that that is a trigger word for a lot of people and it is now perceived as a negative connotation with the word community?

Kristelle: 23:03

In what way.

Jace: 23:04

I've heard multiple oh, I don't use that word, oh, I don't like that word. Community, yeah, which brings another point. With the listening and or coming from a place of now. There are a lot of different rules, words that are okay to use and that are not okay to use. Some groups it's okay, some it's not. And, of course, it's like we'll ask the person individually, yes, one on one. If we were talking and we come up with this both of us Is it Crystal or is it Christelle? Oh, yeah, right, and it's like I could ask it and you could tell me your preference. People ask me is it Jace or is it Jase? It's Jase, okay, great, now we're talking right, yeah, but if a business is doing this or we think about it from a marketing standpoint, where they're wanting to do the right thing, I think most people, when they come down to it, they want to be kind, they want to show up well, they want that harmony with those around them.

Jace: 23:57

I honestly think that's true for the majority, the vast majority of people, and I think there's a lot of avoidance and silence because people are afraid of doing it wrong. Yeah, 100%.

Kristelle: 24:12

And so in communication theory they say that that's the silent majority. The silent majority is a actual theory that says that people start to begin, people start to silence themselves when they can't demonstrate their feelings. But the silent majority is starting to become a major seesaw. This is Crystal's opinion, of course. The silent majority theory is starting to become a major seesaw, like a very volatile seesaw in our country right now.

Kristelle: 24:45

Case in point we didn't realize that racism was so loud until that silent majority became the loud majority in the last several years and that's when we all realized as well that people of color had their microaggressions over the years, that they were finally done and at their tipping point of being silent this whole time. And so when you started to see leaders, leadership, role models, movements, you started to see propaganda, false information, true information, good journalism, whatever that might be, you start to see these swing shifts of the seesaw or these massive turns where the country is starting to be at a point where it's very unstable. We started to see that really during the era of George Bush and Al Gore, with a 50-50 type of election. Now that's very common now, and before there was a time where our country was very unified. It's not now. It's not because there is no silent majority anymore.

Kristelle: 25:59

Well, and I would argue there's more ways to profit off of highly emotional people 100% there are, for sure, but that's definitely a conversation that we can have for another podcast. I just want to say this I never thought in my mind that I would be a social justice warrior. That's not what I want to be. That's not what this podcast is about. I just hope that whoever's watching today will look at this and say success means really looking at the things that bring diversity into your life. I always embraced being the different kid in the room and I hope that somebody takes something away from this podcast, not just the cute hair and makeup that we wear. I really hope that they take away from this. It's like we as a company have been really successful because we put diversity in our core values and I hope somebody can replicate that and be incredibly successful on their own because of it.

Jace: 27:07

Well and I'll throw that even from a biological standpoint as humans, we're only alive because of diversity. When we talk about success, diversity is absolutely needed. One of the things when I'm working with people for self-mastery, I talk about diversifying your time portfolio. If everything's, if all you do is work, it's not a happy life. If all you do is play, it's going to be hard to have a successful life. If it's not enough focus on family and so having that mix of activities and energy spend results in success, and we see that with diversity in every area, Things only get better. In a country that is obsessed with more, more, more, I am always shocked to find people fighting so fucking hard for less. Diversity means more, Everything for everyone Inclusion. We're bringing more in. Why are we fighting so hard to have less?

Kristelle: 28:03

That's a really great way to wrap up our episode. It's a really great way to wrap up our episode, so thanks for joining us. On Story Success and Stuff. We have a special guest that we're really, really excited about. You want to talk about her really quickly.

Jace: 28:15

We are bringing in and if you've been following us for a while, you'll remember a mention of her from our episode on mentors. If you missed that, check that out between this week and next, because we are bringing on the incredible Wendy Irwin, my mentor, now a very good friend and one of the most powerful coaches I've ever encountered when it comes to authentic living and leadership. She's like forget the box so far out of the box. The box is gone. The box doesn't even exist anymore. That's awesome. She's so fucking cool. So I hope you all will join us next week for Wendy Irwin.

Kristelle: 28:51

And I'll tell you it's an honor to meet her. I'm really excited about this episode, but thanks for joining us. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe to us on YouTube or on your favorite podcast channel. Don't forget to follow us on your favorite social media channel or visit us at CRSAcom. We're so grateful for you to be here. This is Jace, I'm Crystal, and thanks again for another episode on Stories and Success and Stuff MUSIC.